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Putting the cart before the horse—steroid Q&A
One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don’t do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she’s ten feet tall
-Jefferson Airplane “White Rabbit”
Highly evolved humans
Q&A posts accomplish several things. First, they answer questions that readers have, hopefully providing some decent information. Second, they invite a little more commentary than the typical information-only posts. Third, they allow a busy (lazy?) writer to avoid crafting and editing a long original post. So, without totally mailing it in, let’s answer some reader questions before the big article comes out.
“Let’s say you have a trainee who TRULY exhausted their linear gains, ate right, etc. Would taking AAS after one’s linear progression put you back in “linear progression” mode since your recovery rate has increased again?” (Justin C)
Good question. Let’s first talk about what it means to truly exhaust linear progression. Justin has previously mentioned how most people don’t finish linear progression. I would add the word “properly” as a modifier. I finished linear progression a couple years ago in that I added weight until I couldn’t anymore. However, I didn’t always eat or rest properly, so my recovery limited my progress. I exhausted linear progression per se, but I left about 15-40 pounds on each lift.
On the other hand, Justin and a handful of other guys did it right. I’m here to tell you that watching a guy train through his last weeks of linear progression is both inspiring and difficult. The amount of concentration and effort required to do this is staggering. Every set of squats looks like a five rep max—and it is. Yet they get under the bar and do it again two days later.
I recently spotted Brian (you’ve seen one of his videos) squatting 505 for three sets of five. I didn’t think he would finish his first set, yet he stood up with all 15 reps. It was amazing, and it looked like it nearly killed him. He looked to be within two workouts of finishing linear progression. Yet he went another month. I cannot overstate the amount of dedicated eating and resting this requires. That is what it takes to truly exhaust linear gains.
To answer Justin C’s question (finally!), yes, supplementation will yield more gains out of linear progression. And by more gains, I mean you will be linearly progressing for a longer period of time. We all have some “endpoint” by which we will exhaust linear gains. That endpoint is affected by genetics, training, and recovery factors. Steroids improve recovery by (simply speaking) enhancing anabolic (building) processes and minimizing and speeding up catabolic (tearing down) processes. By taking steroids, you are just moving your linear progression endpoint to the right (graphically speaking).
Rip has condemned steroid use for anyone on linear progression, and I agree. The consistent but modest loading and muscle building one experiences on linear progression helps the body and the nervous system adapt to increasing loads at a proper pace. Taking steroids and adding fifteen pounds to your squat every workout (instead of ten or five) spells trouble for a novice lifter who is still learning to squat correctly. It also robs you of the opportunity to truly find out what it takes—mentally and physically—to recover from this type of program.
So if you’re going to supplement steroids—and I’m not saying you should—you should wait until you’re nearly at the end of linear progression to do so. And I’m talking about the real dues-have-been-paid end of it. For example, if you reset your squat at 405 and again at 415, starting at a cycle at the third drop-down might get you to 435-445 (whereas you would have petered out at 420 before).
Natural or enhanced?
“How much of the gains made on steroids persist after going off steroids if you were near your physical strength limits before steroids?” (Dr. McFacekick)
It depends what you were taking, how much, and how you come off.
What you’re taking matters because some gear can be anabolic (promotes cell growth), androgenic (promotes virilization, or male characteristics), or both. As such, some are good for getting bigger and stronger, some are good for getting stronger but not bigger, and some are good for cutting fat while maintaining muscle mass (with no effect on strength).
A lot of the bulking agents (especially the heavy androgens) imply some amount of water retention, so true muscle size is inflated anyway on cycle. The question becomes how much of our non-water bulk do we keep when we come off cycle.
Generally speaking, you’ll maintain a greater percentage of your gains made off the milder (high anabolic/low androgenic) drugs. However, you will realize a greater net gain off of stronger gear (high anabolic and androgenic), assuming you come off properly.
Coming off properly refers to ending your cycle. When you’re on, your body stops producing its own testosterone in the presence of the artificial hormone. If you’re using a high enough dosage, some of the excess is being converted to estrogen in a process known as aromatization (this will all be covered). So you are in a situation where you have a surplus of estrogen but aren’t producing any testosterone. If you have ever dated an irrational woman (redundant?), you know how unstable this can be. So imagine quitting cold turkey and living like this.
Low test--high estrogen doesn't end well.
The answer, of course, is to come off properly. This will be covered in detail later, but the simple course of dealing is to
1) address the estrogen issue by reducing androgens and taking a SERM (estrogen inhibitor) as you come off;
2) restart natural testosterone production with HCG (gets the testes fired back up);
3) reset your hormone axis with Clomid;
4) deal with any outstanding Cortisol issues with Clenbuterol; and
5) adjust your diet to deal with your old hormonal patterns.
This is not as hard as it sounds. And if it is done properly, you can keep a lot of your gains.
How much you are taking affects the gains you keep. When talking steroids, more is better in terms of gains. If you’re taking a small dose or a replacement dose, you can keep a lot of gains because the human body “understands” those hormone levels. However, if you’re taking 2 grams a week, i.e. super natural levels, your body will not be able to maintain those gains because the levels are so artificially high.
So it’s not a simple answer. If you run a low dose of testosterone for 12 weeks and come off properly, you can expect to 3-8 pounds (or more in some cases) of lean body mass, which is incredible over a three month period. If you’re popping Anadrol-50 from a Pez dispenser, nah, you don’t get to keep that.
Damn!
“But isn’t steroid supplementation cheating?” (Everyone)
This is going to be the discussion question of the day.
There are a lot of variables, but let’s confine it to this:
1) Steroids are banned substances in professional sports;
2) They are banned because they give a performance edge over someone who doesn’t take them;
3) Professional athletes take them because they give a competitive edge; and
4) Professional athletes have to take them to stay competitive with other athletes who are using.
Is it cheating? Absolutely. But cheating becomes a relative term in professional sports. It’s like playing poker where everybody is looking at everybody else’s cards.
Discuss.
———————–
Questions not answered here will be addressed in the forthcoming article.
It’s PR Friday, boys and girls. Post up weights lifted, calories consumed, or functional fitness gurus made of fun of. Natural, assisted, or otherwise. We’re a big tent here.
106 Comments
February 12th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Squat
410 5×5
Hopefully, I will set two PRs on Saturday. Intensity day.
February 12th, 2010 at 8:55 am
I feel like I would be cheating if I took steroids. I am proud of the gains I have gotten on my own through hard work. However, the distinction between steroids extending gains versus a shortcut to hard work is important. I suppose at the highest levels its a necessary evil.
Anyway, PR Friday:
Bodyweight 203! Finally, I am an adult male. Up from 176 on Christmas day.
This morning did a PR on Squats (255 for my 3 sets of 5)
PR on Press (125 for 3 sets of 5)
I”m still on linear progression, so every press and squat is a PR.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:05 am
That was a very interesting read, Gant. As to whether or not using steroids is cheating, I think that”s a tough question to answer. Is the guy going on steroids to be able to compete with others, who are already on, cheating? Is it cheating to do whatever you need to do to keep your livelihood?
Anyway, I worked extra hard for PR Friday this time around so here goes:
BW – Around 81.5kg.
BS – 115kg 5-5-4, insufficient yelling and rest. Going to correct both for next time and still increase weight.
Press – 55kg 3×5. Stalled yesterday with 57.5kg, going to start microloading.
Deadlift – 115kg. Spent a few workouts doing 110kg to get form down, so this will a “correct form” PR as well.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:10 am
Not many PR””s this week as it was a de-load week for most of the main lifts (on 5-3-1 for squat, deads, and OHP).
Flat Bench – 285×4
GHR – BW+90 2×6
BTW, my wife wants to know if you guys will come out with a 70””s big shirt design for women.
There will be one exclusively for women some time soon.
–Justin
February 12th, 2010 at 9:11 am
Let me clarify: one that has a woman on it.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:17 am
I”m all for steroid use. That being said, I think people look to steroids WAY too soon. I think you need to have YEARS under a barbell, perfecting your form, understanding the grind, learning how to gain naturally, etc., before you should even consider using steroids. Overall though, I really don”t mind steroid use, especially as you get older and your test levels drop. It”s definitely a matter of opinion, but I”d like to see more people really grind out their first huge gains before the thought of steroids even enters their head. There are some true dedicated lifters who are merely looking for the next step, but there are also the weak minded “I want it now” lifters who need a gut check.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:17 am
1 RM Deadlift: 395# (Felt I could”ve gone heavier: 4 plates next time)
Squat: 2×1 355#
I had food poisoning earlier this week: all I could think about were all the calories I was violently expelling from my body. Thanks, 70s Big.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:28 am
Some nice PRs this week for me.
Squat 315x5x5 (stress day)
Bench 285x5x1 (intensity day)
Press 185x5x1 (last week”s intensity day, forgot to post it).
Still gaining 5# per week on the squat. Back to linear progression of 2# per week on the press and bench. DL has stalled due to grip strength issues, but I have added a bunch of grip work and my reps are coming up even if I am not getting above my current weight. So hopefully I will overcome my weakness there and restart linear progression.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:43 am
Since im starting my lifts slightly lower so i wont stall early, i probably won”t have any lifting PRs until next week. However, i believe it is noteworthy to mention my biggest meal this week. A Large Deep Dish Veggie Pizza from Pizza Hut followed by half a gallon of whole milk. I felt extremely bloated after it but it was quite a great after eating experience as well.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:43 am
BS-395x5x3
SP-185x5x3
BP-280x5x3
February 12th, 2010 at 9:48 am
I was fitted for a tux for an annual ball and I have put 2 inches on my chest since last year. I went from a 44L to a 46L. I will take it. Also hit 201.8 and 12.5% BF on the tanita scale this morning. Been a long time coming but I am finally an adult male of the species.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:52 am
Two PRs this week,
Deadlift 420×20
Squat 320×20
February 12th, 2010 at 9:54 am
Hang power clean 220 lbs x1, and squatted 275×5 (big PR!). also, BP 195×2 which is a PR.
Eating wise, I ate 3 burritos from chipotle in one sitting. I went to a “food conference” thinking there would be barbeque everywhere but it turned out the cooks were only making “vegan” stuff. After playing with a stalk of broccoli for 45 minutes, I decided it was time to peace despite all of the female talent and get some food.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:54 am
305 3×5 sq
360 1×5 deadlift
February 12th, 2010 at 9:55 am
Bodyweight: 235 at 6”
Squat: 305x5x3, going for 310 tonight
Press: 136x5x3
February 12th, 2010 at 10:04 am
Bodyweight 199lbs
Squat: 280 3×5
Bench: 195 3×5
Deadlift: 335 1×5
Press: 130 3×5
February 12th, 2010 at 10:05 am
I don”t think it is immoral for a professional athlete to take steroids b/c they are the masters of their own bodies. It is cheating by definition b/c it breaks the rules, though it is the league”s job–not the players” job–to make sure it doesn”t happen.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:07 am
385# for a 1 rep back squat PR. i”ll get that 400 sooner or later. also got my WFAC (Join the Fight) and 70s Big t-shirts in the mail, which i consider a PR.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:10 am
PR”s
Bodyweight = 200kg
Bench = 85kg 5×5
Deadlift = 120kg 5×5
Squat = 100kg 5×5
Press = 55kg 5×5
Also 2kg lamb roast eaten in one day.
Torn t-shirt proving to myself that I could bench more than the 72 year old guy at my gym who benches 103kg.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:13 am
“But cheating becomes a relative term in professional sports”.
To cheat is to violate rules deliberately. Period. So, it”s never a relative term. It will always be cheating as long as the game rules don”t change.
Does that mean that those rules are good rules? No.
Should you break the rules? Heck! That”s up for to you to decide.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:17 am
PRs –
Squat 455 x 6
DL 415 x 12
sb
February 12th, 2010 at 10:24 am
PRs
squat: 285 lbs, 3 x 5
bench: 232.5 lbs, 3 x 5 (235 tomorrow)
power clean: 180 lbs, 5 x 3
size: picked up my new suit the other day. Even bigger than I thought: I”m up to a 48 jacket size, from a 44 three months ago. BW steady around 235, 6”1.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:26 am
PRs made last week (training cycle ended Saturday)
Military: 190X3
Box Squat: Drop Set: 405X12 – 315X12 – 225X12 – 135X12
Close-Grip Bench: 275X2
Alright. The steroid debate is interesting, but I SERIOUSLY want to know exactly what you all mean on this site when you speak of “linear progression.”
Whenever you speak of linear progression, it always sounds to me like it is exclusively limited to training methods like the SS Novice Program or the Texas Method.
All my questions could be answered with one answer if I knew what linear progression exactly means.
Does “linear progression” mean you add weight to the bar for your 5X5 set every week?
I can think of a lot of good training ideologies that aren””t “linear” in nature. The 5/3/1 Program. Westside””s Conjugate Method. Any sort of Linear Periodization or Block Periodization plan. The Bulgarian training model. Blah, blah, blah.
Or does “linear progression” simply mean “get stronger,” ?
The “linear progression” is how we refer to the Starting Strength Model that is outlined in Starting Strength (the book). It is also talked about in Practical Programming. There is no better way to gain strength efficiently for a novice (defined as how a person adapts to stress, not what they know) than doing a linear progression. You will have to do some research to learn what the rep scheme is, but 5×5 is an extraneous amount of volume for a novice.
–Justin
February 12th, 2010 at 10:29 am
Training was great on Monday. Hit a PR on presses: 196.25X5X2 and then 196.25X7 (going for AMRAP). Picked up a really bad cold from my two year old and have been out of commission since Monday. Also, got snowed in Wednesday. Hoping to do something productive tonight in the gym.
As for steroids..super gray area. I”m likely to say its not cheating when the playing field is even (aka everyone is on it, whether the rules allow it or not), and likely to say it is cheating when there are large groups that are clean competing. I can”t really say there”s a right answer for every case.
I do think that steroids do get a really bad rep and are unfairly demonized by society and government at large.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Felt like I needed a week off, so I took the opportunity to test 1rm on monday and the rest of the week off.
Squat(parallel box)-455×1
Bench-275×1 (failed 290)
Deadlift-500×1(went up easy)
February 12th, 2010 at 10:44 am
Penn:
Linear progression refers to programs where weight is added to the bar linearly, no waved loading or anything like that becuase it is geared towards the novice lifters who have the ability to do that exact thing. It is by far the most efficient way to reach the point where you need to start looking at more advanced methods to continue strength gains.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:50 am
@joeheavyslow,
you are a big dude… BW 200kg? haha, typo i”m sure.
PR”s for this week, BS 405 twice, once when healthy with a 35 and 2-5”s (4 plates had me mentally defeated) and then with 4 plates when i was half sick. i”m really starting to understand the mental focus side of things.
plan for tomorrow is BS 407.5, BP 260, and DL 410. all will be either absolute or rep PRs. BW is around 243…
February 12th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Penn: NolanPower answered the question. It is called linear because, if you draw a graph (X=training days; y=weight used), there is a straight line as the weight increases linearly.
*It”s not technically linear since you make bigger jumps at first and micro-load at the end, but you get the idea.
Everyone: “It”s cheating because it breaks the rules” is a cop-out from this discussion. In that respect, and NFL player that takes his helmet off on the field or pulls his socks down is a cheater because that is against the rules.
We”re talking ethics here, not rules. The two are not always synonymous.
February 12th, 2010 at 11:31 am
When it comes to steroids I can understand both sides of the argument for pro athletes. It is absolutely cheating and it is in no way comparable to an on the field penalty like having pulled down socks. That””s just silly. That being said, there are a huge number of pro athletes who use and if you want to make that your career, make lots of money and support a family, that may be a bridge you have to cross.
As for myself, I just don””t see the risk being worth the reward. At this point in my life I””m no longer a competitive athlete, I lift because I find it enjoyable. I will have just as much fun working hard and setting slightly lower PRs than I would on the gear without having to spend a ton of money and worry about hormones getting out of whack or having more pimples than a 17 year old fry cook at burger king. The only reason I could fathom using them is if I had another serious injury that reduced my quality of life and by getting stronger through gear I could get that back.
Or if you were rehabbing form surgery and supplementing the relevant hormones would help you heal more quickly and ensure the surgical repair does not get destroyed.
–Justin
February 12th, 2010 at 11:43 am
Gant
“We”re talking ethics here, not rules.”
I think there”s an implication when people say “steroids is breaking the rules.” The implication is that there”s nothing inherently unethical about taking steroids. With this line of reasoning, the gentlemen in the World”s Strongest Man are doing nothing wrong since they are not breaking the rules of the game, whereas Mark McQuire is frowned upon because he broke the rules.
Thanks for the answer NolanPower. I could argue more about semantics but I will refrain.
February 12th, 2010 at 11:47 am
As far as steroids go if the rules prohibit them due to the perception that they give an unfair competitive advantage then you must abide by those rules or else face the consequences. Such as suspensions. There are different levels of rules in the NFL so to put them on the same category is not correct in my opinon. Having your socks down is a uniform violation and not an on the field penalty, only a fine. Facemask and leg whips are safety concerns and on the field penalties occur. Steroids are off the field issues that will result in much stiffer penalties. That is my pro athlete rant.
As for amateurs do what you like. However, I do not want guys that take them, to get clean right before a powerlifting or weightlifting event and then say that they train clean. That is bunk.
Finally, I have posted this link before but since Gant said that we could make fun of functional fitness I thought I would post it again, I laugh everytime I watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jsenicola#p/a/u/0/rgH_ZoMOht8
Post your thoughts on the video
February 12th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
BW = 206
Back Squat 340 x 5 x 3 sets
Bench Press 270 x 5 x 3 sets
Deadlift 370 x 5 x 1 set
Press 155 x 5 x 3 sets
Power Clean 165 x 3 x 5 sets
February 12th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
PR: read more of Lyle McDonald”s stuff than ever before. BF (and water weight) is steadily dropping after a pretty stout 70sbig eating performance at a SuperBowl party. Which reminds me that I have some pics of some food to submit.
Roids: Having never had the privilege of being in a situation where deciding yes/no on the topic is important in regards to continuing my livelihood (read: pro athletics), I can”t say for certain how I would decide. But outside of that, I can”t see a reason to take them for a casual lifter unless (properly) doctor prescribed. Are we that vain?
I also agree with everyone here that roids are not given a fair shake by the media, but that”s nothing new. I also think they can be used “properly” to a degree. But I also consider it cheating.
However, the famous Richard Petty quote of “If you ain”t cheatin, you ain”t racin!” seems to apply to almost all professional sports these days.
February 12th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Bodyweight – 83.5kg (heaviest ever)
Back Squat 135kg,140kg,145kg x1 PR all 3 lifts.
missed a 115kg bench press =(
February 12th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Jacob, gold star for the Petty quote.
I personally am all for pro athletes being on gear. Who are we to judge them when we have never been in their situation. Besides, better athletes put on a better show for us. Remember how fun it was to watch Romo destroy people?! They also might be taking stuff like deca to help out their joints. There are alot of reasons those guys do it.
February 12th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Snatch 200 lbs for a PR was how my Tuesday evening went.
February 12th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
SWAT – “cheating is relative” doesn”t mean it might not be cheating. It means everyone is cheating, so the ethical quality of your cheating depends on how much everyone else cheats. You”re just cheating more than or less than the other pro athletes – hence relative.
February 12th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
If taking roids was the difference between millions on a new contract or retirement, I would be a fool not to take the hormones.
But as an average joe, like Jacob, I really see no need outside of vanity to take them.
There is still something when an amazing feet is accomplished by a natural athlete that records broken by artificial hormones can””t duplicate.
To each his own. Fuck Barry Bonds.
And lemme tell ya folks, La Habra is as average as they get.
–Justin
February 12th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
PW Friday for me (Piss-Weak)
BW 95kg
BS 102.5kg (PR but missed one rep: 5,4,5)
SP 55kg (wouldv”e been PR if I got all reps: 5,5,4)
PC 70kg 5×3 (PR)
Been eating tonnes this week but had the shits yesterday so maybe wasted a lot of cals?
Possible PR lunch today: 9oz chicken breast plus 1/2 pound bacon ribs plus massive salad (sorry) plus avocado, and 2 pints (UK) whole milk.
February 12th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Good Discussion on Steroids by Dave Tate at the Crossfit Journal.
http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/07/human-potential-steroids-and-crossfit.tpl
Snip: Dave said that high level athletes are locked into a vision and driven by passion. They don’t care what critics think and are always looking for a performance edge. Drugs are part of most sports. Those who get caught are labelled bad people, but the reality is that many of their rivals are also using drugs but just don’t get caught.
Dave said he is neither pro nor con on the use of anabolic steroids. Steroids can move your performance up a notch, but can’t improve your performance by two levels. Steroids are an ace card that can be used only once. It’s one thing for an NFL player to flip the card several years into his career, so he can play five more years and earn another $10-15 million. But it’s deplorable that high school kids who just want big biceps are buying up “the good stuff” and making it harder to find for athletes who really need it.
February 12th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
This week”s PRs:
BW: 218lbs
Back squat: 301x5x3
Deadlift: 400×5
Power clean: 195x3x5
Bench press: 259x5x3
Uniforms: all pants are completely unserviceable/borderline obscene; requiring a few visits to the tailor shop as well as some new purchases
February 12th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Here””s my two cents on steroids…
At one time being a professional athlete meant being genetically/naturally gifted and/or working harder than the other guy to go pro. It also meant going pro for just for the love of whatever your chosen sport was. There were no shortcuts, no artificial enhancers, and very little money to be made. Most less than 100 years ago most professionl athletes had jobs during their off-season to support themselves, their training, and their family. Few people complained about…they loved it enough to do it.
At some point, for some ridiculous reason, money became the slow destruction of professional sports. Sometimes I wonder how many professional athletes would choose to be professional athletes if they were still only making in the thousands for a season?
So, to the steroid position…professional athletics has now become a corrupt business where steroids are necessary for many to be successful. It is each person””s choice to use steroids. I personally don””t think there should be any sort of ban on steroids because so many athletes, in probably 99.99% of all professional sports, are using steroids to some degree. The real shame is the athlete who would play his/her sport steroid free, for little money, just because they love the game, but is pressured to take steroids so that he/she can stay competitive with all the money grubbers jacked up steroids to gain an edge.
Steroids suck, but they””ve become a reality in the sporting world. At this point just let every person make their own decision and let them live with whatever consequences may come their way.
“Steroids suck” is a relative term. Do they suck if they help keep you from being injured or help you heal your injury so that you can keep making lots of money for your family?
–Justin
February 12th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
God lord, I gained 6 pounds during this week!
February 12th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Justin, yes, for me, as spectator of professional sports, steroids still suck under those conditions, based on my desire for “clean” athletes. However, as I said, I understand that it is so prevalent throughout sports today that it should not be regulated. Let every person make his/her choice.
February 12th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
265lbs box squats. 3×5. TOO EASY
press. 115lbs. 5-5-4.
pullups 8-8-10
no deadlifts or power cleans till my lower back heals.
i have a question, i don””t have a problem with steroids at all, but don””t you think that one should do a 5×5 type program or westside before using steroids? great gains can stil be made on these programs
Who are you asking? I thought Gant kinda made that point in the article. I would extend Gant’s thought and say I don’t think anybody require steroids until they are well into an intermediate program. In other words, it would be stupid to use them as a novice since gains can be made so quickly.
–Justin
February 12th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
BS 3x5x345
DL 1x5x425
SP 3x5x147
BP 3x5x235
P.Snatch 5x3x180
Also, not really a pr but a first for me, just went and got my ass kicked by a massage therapist today. Will definitely be doin that regularly.
February 12th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
PRs:
Squat: 292lbs
Bench: 176lbs
Deadlift: 308lbs
OHP: 105lbs
All for sets.
February 12th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Been doing SS little over a month:
all 3×5
Squat 245 to 305
Press 95 to 130
DL 255 to 315
Bench 205 to 210…yeah I can”t figure that one out
February 12th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
Squat 240x3x5 PR
DL 295x1x5 PR
I reread the section on hand placement in SS, but today my elbow hurt more than ever. I think I need to reset and spend a little each day working on shoulder and back strength.
February 12th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
PR”s this week.
Squat w/new elitefts powerbelt:
265×8
February 12th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
I use to have a problem with roids. But now I simply look at it as another tool. The god given talent isn”t born out of steroids. You must work hard to develop those set of skills to be a professional . Skills that are only gained through trial and era, true workmanship. I believe steroids show the absolute full potential of the athlete. To put it this way, if your 1MR deadlift with no straps is 450. Knowing you have the legs and back strength to pull 470. But lack in the hand strength. Do you or do you not go and get the fucking hand straps and pull to your full potential? If you get the hand straps are you cheating?Steroids is a tool to simply better your performance and to stay competitive. You have steroids or creatine, big gains or little gains? You have whole milk or low fat milk, big gains or little gains? You have bacon or turkey bacon, big gains or little gains? The question is this, do you want big gains or little gains? Do you want to see full potential? Steroids are at the top of the food chain when your taking a supplement, period!
February 12th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
And I don”t have any PR”s… I have been ill for the last couple of months and have lost about 20lbs from it. But started back last week lifting. My last PR between 155 160 BW, BS 315 once. Now my weight is very low 140s. But i”m only 5”5 Mr. Rippetoe told me I should be at 180 or so. Totally agree and have every intention of getting there as soon as I”m well.
February 12th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Whoo. Bodyweight 187. Squat 315, bench 225, DL 395, all for 5, all PRs.
That whole coming off business sounds wicked complicated. I also appreciated the bit about truly exhausting linear progression. I don”t know if my eating-fu is strong enough for that…
February 12th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Squat – 245x5x3
Bench – 145x5x3
Bodyweight: A bit over 180 lbs
February 12th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Thats not what your mother said last night Trebeck. errr Justin.
February 12th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
HT: 6”0 (no pr)
WT: 180lb
Squat: 300x5x3
Bench: 200x5x3
Press: 130x5x3
Deadlift: 410x5x1
All PRs
February 12th, 2010 at 8:27 pm
“If a man gains the world and loses his soul, what has he accomplished?”
I seriously doubt any of you out there following this site are professional athletes competing for multi-million dollar contracts, so why are we having this conversation about steroids? And rationalizing their use by saying you only use them to “recover or promote healing” is a cop-out. You can spin it however you want, but steroids are performance enhancers. And if you are “enhancing your performance” then I say shame on you and any PR you accomplish is complete bullshit. You would not have accomplished such feats if not for doping. Illbegotten gains! And you are not a clean lifter if you cycle off of “recovering and healing” in time to compete in a meet. Unless they are prescribed by a doctor on a temporary basis for legitimate medical reasons, I say do what you can with what you”ve got. That way you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and not be ashamed.
Gant…we go way back (frat) brother. Please tell me you do not advocate the use of steroids.
Are dissenters allowed, or will this post be deleted?
February 12th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
The ja-oose isn”t cheating in pro sports…it”s pretty much a given if you want to be elite..sure some pro”s that break some crazy numbers are clean, but these are the .0001 percent of the world population, in terms of luck of no major ijuries and genetic gifts. For the average joe? If someone walked up and offered me some free gear, I”d be hard pressed not to take it….I”m nearing the end of my linear gains…maybe 2 more months and while I”m not considering roids, if you want to take em…go nuts. The funniest thing is that I work part time at a globo and we have a dozen or so gearheads who NEVER and I mean NEVER squat or deadlift…what a waste of good hormones…..
February 12th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
PRs:
BW: 200.6
Squat: 3×5@285
Press: 3×5@120
February 12th, 2010 at 8:38 pm
BW: 158
Squat 3×5 @ 165
DB Bench 5,2,4 @ 130
DL 5 singles @ 245
February 12th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Sumo DL 502 lbs @ 181 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow31cCkUR2s
Low bar SQ 405x3x3 @ 181 430 lbs @ 179.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPA1rwwt3gI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icPnpL97lqw
USAPL FL States next Saturday. After that I”m not cutting weight till after I hit 200 lbs.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
I don”t have the funds or the desire to mess around with steroids but I certainly appreciate the knowledge.
I have 4 PRs this week:
BP: 295lbx1
SP: 200lbx1
Chinup: BW+115lbx1
DL: 585X1
Lisa: Eh, maybe your getting stronger.
Homer: Well, I have been eating more!
February 12th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Weighed in at 201 tonight at six feet tall.
Squat: 260×5/3
Bench: 235×5/3
Deadift: 355×5
Power clean: 150×3/5
All PR”s.
Stuck on 140 for presses. Hitting five reps on first and second sets, but sticking on three or four on number three. Reset next week.
February 12th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
Bench 250x5x3
Press 162.5x3x5
Chins 65x3x5
February 13th, 2010 at 12:15 am
Quality post, Gant. Leaves me wanting to learn more.
Does anyone have the skinny on drugs/products taht claim to stimulate your nads to naturally produce more testosterone?
February 13th, 2010 at 12:38 am
380x3x5
14in rip in shorts while setting a squat pr
farted during squats and started laughing with 375 on my back
feel like im nearing the end of linear progression. every day is a huge mental test
first weightlifting meet tomorrow…
February 13th, 2010 at 12:58 am
Seems like I haven”t PRed in ages.
Press 165×1 @ BW: 180
February 13th, 2010 at 1:12 am
Tried to put links in to vids of my new pr”s, but it seems that makes the post require moderation. So here I”m posting again.
Sumo DL 502 @ 181
Low Bar SQ 405x3x3 @ 181 (last rep was a wee bit high)
Low Bar SQ 430 @ 179
Cutting weight to lift in 82.5 at meet next Saturday.
February 13th, 2010 at 1:47 am
powerclean 75.5kg 5×3
DL 153kg 1×5
I agree with the stance that steroids are a tool. As a 23 year old novice I don”t think the side effects outweigh the benefits, but when I”m much older and natural hormones decline, it may be something I would seriously consider.
February 13th, 2010 at 3:53 am
Thought I”d add another question. It seems that powerlifting is one of the only (indeed the only one I know of) sports that has compartmentalized drug testing, to the extent that in many federations the lifter chooses whether to lift at a tested or untested meet. This is also reflected in the distinction between amateur and pro.
It seems this has been embraced to the extent that lifters can, without being judged, lift wherever they want. This takes the cheating out of the equation – just lift in a non-tested meet.
I think it would be interesting to see/discuss how this has affected the image of powerlifting both from within and outside of the community. Also, whether there is still a problem (especially in the USA) with drug use in tested federations. I realize that the game is slightly different in the rest of the world, as the IPF is often the only fed, and does not offer untested meets.
February 13th, 2010 at 6:44 am
What”s missing from this discussion is the health affects.
What is the risk of a teenager dosing while his body is going though a lot of natural development and changes?
What is the risk of long term dosage?
What is the risk of dosing without proper supervision…which is probably a lot of the cases?
The issue I have with football usage is that players are getting bigger and faster than the frame and head seems to be able to handle given the increased energy of the collisions.
Baseball usage hurts the integrity of the statistics and baseball is a stat driven sport.
All that aside, the real question is health risks from steroid usage itself and in the case of football potential higher risk of injury from bigger, more powerful athletes.
February 13th, 2010 at 8:15 am
Ha I just realised I put BW= 200kg!
It”s actually 120
February 13th, 2010 at 8:39 am
Hey, returning to the belt topic, I”ve found these two in the UK that look good:
http://www.pullum-sports.co.uk/accessories/powerlifting-belts/american-competition-powerlifting-belt/prod_22.html
http://www.pullum-sports.co.uk/accessories/powerlifting-belts/titan-toro-lever-belt/prod_517.html
Now the lever one is a lot cheaper, but is it better to have one with a prong?
February 13th, 2010 at 8:48 am
squat pr 3 x 5 x 310
February 13th, 2010 at 10:17 am
@Jonathan
Since you”re in the EU, why not try Goodlift (http://www.goodlift.cz/nabidka.asp?lan=en)? I have their power belt, and am very happy with it. Shipping is 10 EUR across Europe, very prompt in my experience.
Goodlift also sponsors the Czech Powerlifting Federation, and is a permitted logo in IPF meets.
February 13th, 2010 at 10:38 am
6”5″ 279lbs
SQ- 470x5x3
February 13th, 2010 at 10:48 am
BW PR this week: 205#
As for steriods, if they”re banned in your sport and you use them anyway, that”s cheating. I see no fuzz on this particular peach. The fact that others are also cheating is immaterial.
If you need to cheat to make a living for your family, that”s something you need to work out with your own conscience. Other people, like lawyers and businessmen are also faced with analogous moral dilemmas.
If you are a run-of-the-mill amateur trainee like me, I don”t really see the point of steroid use when weighed against the risks. Ultimately though, it”s a personal judgment call.
February 13th, 2010 at 11:24 am
AAS Discussion-
Not trying to be argumentative, but does anyone know the long term risks associated with vitamin C, or any vitamin or mineral for that matter?
You could certainly have serious issues if overdosed with anything. The difference here is education, a educated user does not get information from the media, which chooses to use scare tactics and mis guided information to deter young athletes from using. Good intentions, but I think proper research and education is the way to go.
February 13th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
After a half a week on GOMAD + another week on GOMAD and SS, I am up 18 lbs from what I used to wrestle.
162 to 180, and I still have a huge amount of weight to gain!
February 13th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
5”8″ and 216 lbs
PRs on:
Deadlift – 345×5
Squat – 255x5x3
Press – 120x5x3
Bench – 185x5x3
February 13th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Can someone please recommend me a good weight lifting belt? I live in Toronto and they all sell nylon “grizzly” belts. I”m willing to order a good belt online, but I don”t know much about what”s good even through searching google. I”m 5”10 170 (34 in waist) what size should I be looking to get?
thanks guys.
February 13th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Yall check out http://www.startingstrength.com. Rip”s new interview of Shane Hamman is up…
February 13th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
First powerlifting meet here in Montreal today. I learned a lot of valuable lessons:
- squat deeper
- squat deeper
- squat deeper
Got first easy squat attempt (145kg – 320lbs) right, but missed the 2nd and 3rd attempts for lack of proper depth.
Bench (no shirt) was easier (got 105kg and 115kg – 253lbs), but missed 3rd attempt – again lack of proper technique probably explains why.
Got all 3 deadlift attempts : 180kg, 190kg, and 200kg (440lbs).
So its a first total of 460kg (1014lbs) at 196lbs bw (5”9””).
I”ve been doing strength training for less and 6 months, but moved waaaayyyy too soon to intermediate programming. Over the past few weeks I went back a simple starting strength template and found I could still make linear gains.
I”ll wait til I see Jesus at the bottom of my squat and get confirmation from him I can move on to intermediate programming. Until then I”ll need to train harder, and eat and sleep more.
Can”t wait for the 2nd meet (in 3-4 months” time).
February 13th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Friday I got a 4 plate DL
Saturday first girl lifted overhead
Shaping up to be a good weekend.
February 13th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
still cant do heavy presses. but my shoulder is def gettin better!
Squat PR 5×3 335lbs
DL PR 5×1 385lbs
body weight PR 184lbs at 5”10″
lost 5lbs last week due to bein sick gaind 6lbs back this week.
February 13th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
PR of 275 lb deadlift.
@ StillGrowing
How do you convince a girl to let you lift her overhead?
February 13th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
Holymad – congrats on your first meet! Great numbers for your first time out. Glad to hear you”re planning your second meet. What federation did you compete in?
February 13th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
For those who do use steroids or are thinking about it and want to use a SERM for PCT please read the following:
Clomid & Nolvadex – The Dark Side
http://www.primordialperformance.com/store/educational-articles.html?id=40
February 13th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
I don”t understand how steroids are considered cheating. Granted, I feel people jump to steroid use way too soon within their training career. Much like uninformed people who buy all sorts of supplements boasting to aid their recovery, training, and nutrition when in reality they need to get the basics down before hitting the special stuff. Supplements do exactly what their name entails – they give you the extra things you need to maintain such an active/rigorous lifestyle. They shouldn”t be one”s excuse for success or failure. Plus, I recognize the athletes, lifters, and bodybuilders who use as respectable performers, not cheaters, because they put in the colossal work to achieve greatness.
TL;DR
Don”t use steroids too soon, or if you aren”t competitive.
February 13th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
hey, this is becky. saul got me a belt for valentine”s day. i used it for the first time tonight and PR”d in the deadlift. 204 lbs.
all my other lifts are painfully stuck. i”m losing patience.
February 13th, 2010 at 10:47 pm
Snatch 235#
C&J 300#
February 13th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Came down with swine flu, but managed to hit
Press:182x3x5
bodyweight:225
February 14th, 2010 at 2:29 am
This guy is using the power of being a giant Russian in addition to probably using lots of steroids.
DL 390kg (860lbs) X 3 without a suit and double overhand grip. I was pretty impressed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhwsCCtsaDk
February 14th, 2010 at 4:55 am
@ Mr. Blink
We were joking around, and I told her if she didn”t smarten up I was gonna put her on a nearby shelf about 15” in the air, she said I couldn”t lift her, I said I could, She doubtfully told me to try.
February 14th, 2010 at 8:30 am
squat 370x5x3
dead 365x5x1
bench 257 1/2 x5x3
press 175x5x3
had steak, peanut butter ice cream, and milk for breakfast before my last training day.
February 14th, 2010 at 9:07 am
Couple of questions.. firstly, how long of a gap can you have between lifts before it is no longer a set? I ask because my deadlift reps are not exactly 1-2-3-4-5, done in twenty seconds. Secondly, when you reach the intermediate programming stage, do you then dial back the massive calorie consumption because your gains (and size increase) and so much slower?
Thanks.
After the initial “learning how to deadlift” phase, a set really is not a set if your hands leave the bar, unless there is a problem.
–Justin
February 14th, 2010 at 9:07 am
Jacob: thanks. The meet was under IPF rules (Canadian Powerlifting Union).
There were some great lifters at this meet, including a 38kg woman (in the masters category) who I believe deadlifted 120kg, more than 3 times her bodyweight.
February 14th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Good article, although I don”t remember saying that
PR”s this week:
OHP 90lbx 3×5
Bench 117.5x3x5
Linear gains are awesome, every week is a PR week
Oh, and I got called a “viking”
February 14th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
@Jonathan:
By far, the best value belt in the UK:
http://www.zuluglove.com/
February 14th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
I”ve liked this site right from the start because it revolves around my two favourite subjects: lifting heavy and eat like a beast.
But really, I find the last entries about artificial enhancement quite off-putting.
February 14th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
BW 195 pr
Squat 325 3×5 pr
Question for everyone:
If you guys don”t have access to weights for 4-5 days, what do you typically do for training?
Sprints? Any body-weight exercises? Or just take the extra rest?
Thanks
February 14th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
I think linear periodization should be dropped before you reach the end. There are many other types of programming that will allow you to eke out those gains without the tremendous drain on your recovery.
I see PED usage start way before it should. I have acquaintances who do not know how to train without that enhancement. I have others who are on permanent HRT because of their uneducated use of PEDs.
Mel Siff put it eloquently when he commented that a regimen of PEDs, done intelligently, will add to your potential strength and size when you return to unassisted training. You see this with such 70s Big icons like John Kuc. It”s my opinion Kuc couldn”t have hit his drug-free marks without having added that potential previously.
February 15th, 2010 at 12:07 am
[...] Steroid Q&A [...]
February 15th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
[...] [...]
February 16th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Gant: Thank you very much for the response, very informative and to the point! I look forward to future articles.
Body weight PR: @ 205 lbs, woohoo! I”m 6”2″ so I don”t consider myself a real adult male yet
(Still on linear progression)
February 16th, 2010 at 10:52 am
This has been on my mind for awhile. But what do you guys feel about steroid use in the military?
My opinion, it should not NOT be illegal and given serious thought as to providing assistance to soldiers/marines who wish to take it.
Military training can grind you down into the dirt. Overuse injuries are rampant. Every fighter that is hurt, reduces the combat effectiveness of the unit, putting troops lives at risk and compromising the mission. Imagine if recovery was increased, joints were healthier, and STRENGTH was increased? With the resources the military has, it isn””t inconceivable that medics/physicians could be provided to monitor troops and ensure it is administered safely.
Amphetamines are already given to fighter pilots and some infantry/SOF units in theatre that are on extended patrols. Remember kids, this is war, not sports. Fair and level playing field goes out the window. In a perfect world, I””d rather have my platoon go through a 4 months linear strength training program then put on mild AAS to assitance with recovery during training. I dunno, just something that””s been on my mind lately. Sorry for the long post.
You bring up a good point. We at 70’s Big and the Starting Strength CIC are of the opinion that preparing military personnel with proper strength training is going to be more relevant for their individual tasks than long slow distance cardiorespiratory/vascular tests.
–Justin